Talk:Yin Release Thorns
Yin Release Hoy Sei. I was searching in random pages and I happened to stumble upon this one. Now I won't say that my knowledge of Yin and Yang exceeds yours, but I do have an issue with this technique, maybe it's a misunderstanding on my part so bare with me here. So basically, Yin is spiritual energy, it is energy that can easily be shaped and manipulated as well as used to conjure illusionary effects. However, it is intangible. Taking that into account, how can you bring Yin to be tangible and not only that, but tough enough to break through the hardest of substances? thanks for your time. [[User:Jinsui|'Jinsui']] ([[User talk:Jinsui|'My Talkpage']]) 11:25, October 4, 2014 (UTC) :I believe the same way Ryōtō works? Eating Yang energy, allowing it to pierce through anything physical? Just like your technique can cut through anything physical. I think at least. ~~ The Spiral Master (--Delve Into the Spiral--) 12:01, October 4, 2014 (UTC) ::Chix- My technique works on an entirely different concept. It's extreme Yang absorption, which is the result of concentrating a significant amount of Yin energy into a very small and narrow point, in this case, the edge of the blade. However, with this technique it is sort of vague as nothing is explained about consuming Yang, so I doubt Sei is going by my theory. I just wanted to know the logic behind this technique for my own knowledge. [[User:Jinsui|'Jinsui']] ([[User talk:Jinsui|'My Talkpage']]) 12:10, October 4, 2014 (UTC) I don't pretend myself to be that great an expert on Yin and Yang theory, so your knowledge might very well surpass mine, but it isn't as complicated as all that. It follows a much simpler idea. Consider the Steam Ninjutsu. On its own, it, as the name implies already, allows the user to create steam for a variety of purposes. When applied to one's chakra, it has the effect of heating their chakra to the boiling point — essentially "steaming" chakra. Therefore, if we follow the same train of thought, Yin Release is about the creation of form and shape. On its own, when there is no life breathed into it, the user can create false forms and shapes; the basis of genjutsu. However, if we apply the form-creation ability to that of chakra, just like Steam Ninjutsu was applied, then we can craft actual forms and shapes out of existing energy; existing life force, in other words. It's essentially similar to when Hagoromo created the nine beasts out of the chakra ripped away from Kaguya, but on a far smaller scale, since this technique merely creates weaponized thorns rather than massive beasts. Anyways, I hope that makes sense. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 16:04, October 4, 2014 (UTC) :: Shikamaru also states that Tayuya and his own shadow techniques might be the product of Yin-natured techniques and those techniques very clearly have physical consequences. Just because Genjutsu falls under the "broad" (meaning large) category of Yin Release, doesn't mean that all applications of it are intangible and non-physical. 16:15, October 4, 2014 (UTC) Well, I studied Yin and Yang excessively for months now. All I know is that pure Yin energy is by all means intangible. It can't be touches, which is one of its most dangerous aspects as well, if used correctly. In order to breath life or give physical presence to a substance that's made out of Yin, you need to add Yang. Yang is life force, yet it's also "substance". It's tangible. So I would classify this technique as a Yin-Yang jutsu. Considering that Yin-Yang is a weaker variant of Creation of All Things. As one uses Yin to give form to these thorns and Yang to give them substance and tangibility. Hope I explained my point of view with clarity, peace~ [[User:Jinsui|'Jinsui']] ([[User talk:Jinsui|'My Talkpage']]) 01:40, October 5, 2014 (UTC) :I don't know where you studied them but one of the first things you learn when studying Yin and Yang is that when the world was created, Yang expanded and created the sky while Yin congealed and created the earth. Yang represents heaven and Yin represents earth, that's why the ba gua have three Yang bars for heaven and three Yin bars for earth instead of ratios between the two. Yin is heavy, so I don't know where you're getting the whole "intangible" and "can't be touched" thing. But if you're discussing Narutoverse Yin Release and Yang Release, Yin Release acts upon spiritual energy, which takes residence inside the brain. That's why it is involved with genjutsu. But ultimately, as it has been explained, Yin Release is about creating form from nothing. If you create form from nothing, then that's what you have: nothing. A false form. An empty form. That is what an illusion is. But in the case of these thorns, you have chakra. Chakra is the substance. You use Yin Release to create form from the chakra to create thorns. It's just a shape, that's all. Yang Release isn't needed whatsoever. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 01:47, October 5, 2014 (UTC) ::I see where your coming from. I only follow Narutoverse knowledge or point of view of Yin and Yang. However, if that was the case, why is creation of all things a Yin-Yang technique, if it only needs Yin to create form out of nothing? [[User:Jinsui|'Jinsui']] ([[User talk:Jinsui|'My Talkpage']]) 01:59, October 5, 2014 (UTC) :Because Creation of All Things creates actual life. At least, while it can be argued, if we're going strictly by canon, the only times it's been used is to create the nine beasts and it served as the guideline for Izanagi's creation. Izanagi needs Yin Release and Yang Release because if it only used Yin, it would only create illusions, and you can't rewrite reality like that because reality is alive. The flow of the universe is alive. Reality is composed of both Yin and Yang, therefore you need both to alter it successfully. But when you have raw energy — raw chakra in this case — or any substance really, all you really need is Yin Release to shape it. In other words, you could think about Yin being shape manipulation and Yang being nature manipulation; in the simplest way of thinking that is, since these two are very broad. Yin is used to give shadows, in the Shadow Possession Jutsu of the Nara clan, their physical shape, for example. I sort of skipped around but I hope that makes sense. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 02:21, October 5, 2014 (UTC) ::Yeah it makes sense. It's nice to see things from another point of view. It certainly was useful hearing your side of the argument when it comes to Yin and Yang, one of my favorite topics. Thanks for your time, Sei. Talk to you later hopefully. [[User:Jinsui|'Jinsui']] ([[User talk:Jinsui|'My Talkpage']]) 02:24, October 5, 2014 (UTC) :Like I said before, I don't consider myself the leading expert on this material, so there is a strong possibility that I could be wrong on a lot of points. That being said, I hope you continue learning more about this stuff, there are very fascinating ideas there and they definitely help to inspire ideas in terms of fanon work. But I did enjoy the talk. No matter who is right or wrong, discussing and debating these things helps all parties involved have to re-evaluate their paradigms and their creations so as to either defend their point or to correct the issues with it. So your comments are always welcome, my friend. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 02:29, October 5, 2014 (UTC) My only problem with this technique is its label as a Yin Release. "Form from nothingness" seems like a metaphor for imagination. Because only in the imagination can something that did not exist before, come into existence. As a pure yin technique the thorns would only be projections with no physicality to them. And in response to Ten, yes Tayuya's and Shikamaru's technique are both Yin based, but Tayuya's specifically stated that it was mostly Yin with a little yang, making them unbalanced which was why the hungry spirits consumed yang. The only Yin Release techniques that exist are genjutsu because they can only exist in the imagination; in either your own or your opponents. This technique is a Yin-Yang Release, pure and simple. Because as it is these projections are nothing more than that - illusory projections. Without yang, they're still just a dream until you breath life into them and give it a physical form. --- Abysmal Shadows (Talk) 15:22, October 5, 2014 (UTC) :Your logic is sound, there's no denying that, but ultimately Void, it's a matter of arguing what we interpret Yin Release and Yang Release to be versus what we've seen in the canon when it comes to applying a release to one's chakra in order to impose some sort of effect onto it. The Steam Ninjutsu example above that I mentioned demonstrates that. Ultimately, Yin Release is a broad form of ninjutsu that focuses on shape and form; that much is both canon and agreed upon I believe. You're correct, when it's purely Yin, it's imagination. A false form, false shape. Hence genjutsu. Because that's the effect it has. But it'd be different if you'd apply it to something else that already has a physical form. That already exists on its own as a real substance. And Steam Ninjutsu proved to us that chakra is in fact a real substance, given that it can actually be brought to a boiling point. Wind Release, on its own, manipulates the air around one's self and creating bursts of wind. That's what all pure ninjutsu involving Wind Release has shown. But when channeled through a medium, it grants an enhanced degree of cutting power. Because we know that in this context, wind is an element associated with the effect of cutting. Yin Release is a force associated with form and shape, making it tremendously broad. It can be used purely for genjutsu, or it can be channeled through a substance in order to alter its form. Free-flowing chakra can be refined and crafted into solid weapons. I mean, if we use chakra flow to enhance a weapon with, say, Wind Release, do we no longer classify that as being a Wind Release technique? It's the same logic here. I only classify it as Yin Release because of that quality. In a way, you'd be right to say this is Yin-Yang Release, since even my theory involves both parts of it, but if chakra is the substance Yin Release is being used to manipulate, well, technically chakra is the "Yang" — the energy — so the only real technique being performed here is the "Yin" portion — hence, Yin Release. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 14:15, October 6, 2014 (UTC) And your logic is sound. So if we're both right then it truly is up for interpretation. So rather than it being a debate on which release it truly is, because it can be one or the other, the real challenge her is deciding what properties its would have based on which release it ultimately ends up being. In Bleach, the Fear Thorns would most undoubtedly fit with being a Yin based technique. Their delivery method while unique can be considered a bit more elegant in terms of potency. Hmm using a projectile to infuse a target with a genjutsu. Interesting, I'll have to keep that one in mind. Lots of useful and practical applications there. Well alright I'm satisfied. Good show Sei. --- Abysmal Shadows (Talk) 14:30, October 6, 2014 (UTC) :Oh, one step ahead of you there, my friend. In the RP me and Ten were doing against Serk and the others, Ryun would infuse his genjutsu into both the glowing light from scale powder but also through the black rods fired by Seireitou; a sort of collaboration between the two. So not only would the light allow for efficient genjutsu delivery but the projectile method of genjutsu delivery as well as a back-up. There's a lot of juicy ideas ripe for the picking in that department. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (Dosvidaniya, tovarisch.) 14:35, October 6, 2014 (UTC) :Seeing as Madara already performed Sage Art: Yin Release Lightning Dispatch, how would Yin Release Thorns be a problem? Not to mention Will Materialisation. What else can that be but Yin Release? People object over the strangest things.--CyberianGinseng 19:10, October 6, 2014 (UTC) ::Cyber- That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. [[User:Jinsui|'Jinsui']] ([[User talk:Jinsui|'My Talkpage']]) 02:13, October 9, 2014 (UTC) :::Actually, it has everything to do with what you're talking about. The discussion is about whether Yin Release can produce tangible physical effects. Shall I post quotes? :::"So basically, Yin is spiritual energy, it is energy that can easily be shaped and manipulated as well as used to conjure illusionary effects. However, it is intangible." :::"Well, I studied Yin and Yang excessively for months now. All I know is that pure Yin energy is by all means intangible. It can't be touches, which is one of its most dangerous aspects as well, if used correctly." :::"Yin is heavy, so I don't know where you're getting the whole "intangible" and "can't be touched" thing." :::Just three examples. Madara produced "tangible" physical effects from a Yin Release. His Yin release lightning struck the ground and caused actual damage. This is not in dispute. That means it's CANON that the question YOU ASKED that started this thread of "how can you bring Yin to be tangible and not only that, but tough enough to break through the hardest of substances?" has already been demonstrated by the author and therefore should've never even been asked in the first place.--CyberianGinseng 02:51, October 9, 2014 (UTC)